tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062692702190792942.post8669951361246546000..comments2024-03-20T10:42:44.550+00:00Comments on ROMAN CHRISTENDOM: The Cathars: a bizarre medieval sectTribunushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17330137792269530812noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062692702190792942.post-86901077493573663102018-07-25T10:51:58.794+01:002018-07-25T10:51:58.794+01:00Beautifully saidBeautifully saidAdrian Ariashttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15726608447700808073noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062692702190792942.post-2506777239471085382015-10-19T16:16:55.265+01:002015-10-19T16:16:55.265+01:00The cathars are a lot like the Heaven's gate c...The cathars are a lot like the Heaven's gate cult. The man they left behind named himself Rio de Angelis. River of Angels... They believed the body was evil vehicle. They also thought to make men and women equal they should castrate themselves. They were vegetarians and they were going to join the Hale Bop Comet and be a star in another plane of existence. I am not sure why the sympathizers of this stupidity don't just make a new Heaven's gate, oh wait they all killed themselves, nevermind.starfishladyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14267598152864864777noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062692702190792942.post-48103926939453057932013-04-06T16:32:03.062+01:002013-04-06T16:32:03.062+01:00Wrong on all counts, Anonymouse.
The Cathars were...Wrong on all counts, Anonymouse.<br /><br />The Cathars were about as "Christian" as the so-called Deutsche Christen who supported Hitler and the Nazis i.e. not remotely Christian.<br /><br />They were not only liars but also murderous killers.<br /><br />So - yes - they DID go around killing mass groups of people "in the name of their religion, for the supposed reformation of the church and otherwise".<br /><br />They mass-murdered Catholics, priests, nuns, bishops, archbishops and eventually murdered the Papal Legate.<br /><br />They terrorised the south of France and the north of Spain.<br /><br />That is why the Pope was eventually forced to declare a Crusade against them and authorise Christian Catholics to restrain and arrest the Cathar terrorists and murderers.<br /><br />These are readily ascertainable facts.<br /><br />Take your own advice: "stop reading what you want to hear and maybe exercise some tolerance".<br /><br />If you can...Tribunushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17330137792269530812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062692702190792942.post-18546586920011266132013-03-14T03:19:57.546+00:002013-03-14T03:19:57.546+00:00It's not that Cathars don't believe in pro...It's not that Cathars don't believe in procreation they preach celibacy but it was really only the perfecti that lived this element. Cathars believed in Christ therefore they can call themselves Christians. They were undoubtedly better Christians than most as they didn't go around killing mass groups of people in the name of their religion, for reformation of the church or otherwise. <br /><br />I would maybe stop reading what you want to hear and maybe exercise some tolerance like the good Christian you areAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062692702190792942.post-23848620681367711982010-06-06T00:05:57.195+01:002010-06-06T00:05:57.195+01:00You are indeed no theologian. And, indeed, quite i...You are indeed no theologian. And, indeed, quite ignorant to much of this debate.<br /><br />And since you aren't, then it would be wiser to avoid commenting on what you know nothing - or but little - of.<br /><br />Dualism is a belief-system that puts 2 forces - one good, one evil - as the prime ones in the Universe and calls them equal and opposite.<br /><br />It is the basis of Manichaeism, the philosophy of Mani, itself the basis of the Catharist belief.<br /><br />It is about as different from the concept of the Trinity as it is possible to imagine.<br /><br />A little elementary theology is all that is needed to understand that.<br /><br />You can only say "I fail to see the point in challenging any person's established belief system" if you do not belief that there is such a thing as truth.<br /><br />Is that really your view?<br /><br />As to your tediously predictable, facile and surprisingly unimaginative question, why not put the question this way:<br /><br />"What, if anything, is responsible for more art, science, literature, music, medicine, constitutional development, cultural development, civilisation and general human improvement and bringing order out of disorder, than religion itself?"<br /><br />As to hypocrisy, it is not religion which is hypocritical but men. You might as well accuse a painting or a poem of being hypocritical, as religion.<br /><br />Religions can, however, be false. They can also be true.<br /><br />The Catharist religion is false - deadly false.<br /><br />It did not advance civilisation but sought to impede it.<br /><br />However, bad as Catharism was (and is), it has not been quite as bad as the philosophy and proponents of atheism.<br /><br />The 20th century is testimony to that simple fact for it is has been the bloodiest, most violent, most cruel and most degraded of all centuries, despite its being also a century of much improvement.<br /><br />What past religion, however bad, ever reached the heights of depravity and murderous blood-lust as atheistic Communism or Nazism?<br /><br />Hmm?<br /><br />You see, it is not religion which has been the greatest enemy of civilisation.<br /><br />Atheism has been far, far worse.Tribunushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17330137792269530812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062692702190792942.post-66556280088228622292010-06-03T10:26:56.674+01:002010-06-03T10:26:56.674+01:00I am no theologian, and claim no intimate knowledg...I am no theologian, and claim no intimate knowledge of Cathars. I am in fact quite ignorant to much of this debate. Though I will note that the concept of Yin and Yang is often misunderstood. If the dualism you refer to is this same concept, than it is no more referring to "two" Gods than the Father, Son and Holy Ghost is referring to "three." Do not read further into that than what it says. I fail to see the point in challenging any person's established belief system, but I would like to propose a question. What, if anything, is responsible for more death, destruction, suffering and general disarray among the human race than religion itself? I cannot name a single religion that isn't hypocritical in that it preaches peace while shanking its neighbor. I do not exclude my own beliefs from that comment.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062692702190792942.post-4616108274390142092010-02-04T21:30:37.003+00:002010-02-04T21:30:37.003+00:00Anonymouse, or Michael of UK (if it is you),
The ...Anonymouse, or Michael of UK (if it is you),<br /><br />The Cathars indeed did not believe in procreation which shows the bizarre nature of their sect straightaway.<br /><br />They certainly believed in killing since euthanasia was their one and only Sacrament - the <i>consolamentum</i> whereby the believer was either suffocated or starved to death.<br /><br />You display a lack of knowledge in not knowing this.<br /><br />The Catholic Church - that Church which, alone among all others, has existed since Pentecost as 1st century sources themselves testify - certainly did not "exterminate" anyone, let alone an entire people.<br /><br />You are simply talking arrant, ignorant, nonsense, anonymouse.<br /><br />If you could be bothered to read the history of those times - rather than lazily making up untruths - you would see that it was the Cathars who attacked the Catholics.<br /><br />An army of 50-100,000 Cathars under King Pedro of Aragon advanced into southern France to capture it and to slay the Catholics.<br /><br />They were opposed by a tiny Catholic army of only 700 knights under Count Simon de Montfort.<br /><br />By a providential intervention, de Montfort and his men managed to rout this huge Cathar army.<br /><br />It was the Cathars who were trying to do the exterminating - not the Catholics. The Catholics were merely defending themselves.<br /><br />The Catholic Church did indeed try to let the Cathars become extinct of their own accord but the Cathars were aggressors and murderers and so the Catholic people had no choice but to defend themselves.<br /><br />You are so woefully ignorant that you do not know this. <br /><br />But your woeful ignorance is doubly demonstrated by the fact that you seem to think that the Pope claims to damn people eternally.<br /><br />What nonsense!<br /><br />He doesn't.<br /><br />Neither does God.<br /><br />People damn themselves by sins - sins like lying, cheating, defaming and abusing.<br /><br />Take care that you do not do the same yourself.<br /><br />In your ealrier email you said <i>Beware, all ye that believe unquestioningly!</i>.<br /><br />But I note that you unquestioningly beleive your own doctrines. It's only other people's beliefs that you think should be challenged and called false.<br /><br />Thus it is you, in fact, who are in danger of being blinded to any expansion of your understanding.<br /><br />And yet you call other people hypocrites.Tribunushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17330137792269530812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062692702190792942.post-85871987086492214802010-02-04T02:04:01.602+00:002010-02-04T02:04:01.602+00:00From my understanding the cathars didn't belie...From my understanding the cathars didn't believe in killing nor procreation. The fact that the supposedly christian catholic church had to exterminate an entire people is only a sad condemnation of the churches own hypocrisy. A more sensible and less violent approach would have been to allow them to become extinct of their own values, but a fearful church feared losing control of people who didn't fear eternal damnation at the hands of the pope.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062692702190792942.post-31049531671293078842009-01-01T23:29:00.000+00:002009-01-01T23:29:00.000+00:00Dear Michael of UK,Does your advice apply also to ...Dear Michael of UK,<BR/><BR/>Does your advice apply also to your own beliefs? Or only to those you currently disagree with?<BR/><BR/>If the former, then your failure to question your own beliefs falls under your own ban and blinds your own understanding.<BR/><BR/>If the latter, then you are maintaining double standards by applying one rule to yourself and quite another to others.<BR/><BR/>The Nazis had a belief-system which led them into conflict and death at the hands of an opposing belief system.<BR/><BR/>Does that mean we should sympathise with them?<BR/><BR/>Apparently so, according to your moral compass.<BR/><BR/>The way to the truth is not to be found by denying that there is any such thing as truth, Michael.<BR/><BR/>It is to be found by using your intelligence and reasoning power to ponder, analyse and so arrive at the truth.<BR/><BR/>To ignore the facts about the Cathars is to embrace falsehood and turn one's back on the truth.<BR/><BR/>There was nothing poor about the Cathars. They were rich, powerful, murderous and oppressive.<BR/><BR/>You might just as well sympathise with Stalin or Hitler.Tribunushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17330137792269530812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062692702190792942.post-78434991281794429162008-12-31T23:36:00.000+00:002008-12-31T23:36:00.000+00:00I sympathize with the poor Cathars, who had a beli...I sympathize with the poor Cathars, who had a belief system - which like many belief systems - led them to conflict and death; at the hands of an opposing belief system. Beware, all ye that believe unquestioningly! Those beliefs you do not doubt, may similarly blind you to any expansion of your understanding.<BR/>Michael. U.K.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062692702190792942.post-9118259899385825242008-03-10T10:57:00.000+00:002008-03-10T10:57:00.000+00:00Thanks Elena!Just seen your profile and blog - fas...Thanks Elena!<BR/><BR/>Just seen your profile and blog - fascinating! You are a girl after my own heart.<BR/><BR/>I shall, if I may, add your blog as a link.<BR/><BR/>I love that quote from Burke about Marie-Antoinette. She was, indeed, a royal martyr.Tribunushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17330137792269530812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062692702190792942.post-75965457769084947562008-03-10T02:53:00.000+00:002008-03-10T02:53:00.000+00:00Excellent article! Since the Cathars believed that...Excellent article! Since the Cathars believed that there were two gods they can hardly be classified in any monotheistic religion.elena maria vidalhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17129629173535139807noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062692702190792942.post-21911605487551583392008-03-06T09:50:00.000+00:002008-03-06T09:50:00.000+00:00Finally, I may add that Foxe's famous "Book of Mar...Finally, I may add that Foxe's famous "Book of Martyrs" refers to the Albigensians and their Italian equivalent, the Waldenses, as a part of "Reformed Christianity", i.e. as orthodox Protestants, although it is difficult to see how they can be described as Christians in any rational sense at all.<BR/><BR/>It is true that they called themselves "Christians" but can they be called Christian who believe in Dualism, two Creators, a malevolent God, Reincarnation, that the earthly Jesus was evil and Mary Magdalene was his concubine, that the Old Testament prophets are all damned and John the Baptist a greater demon? Can they who deny the Resurrection of the flesh be called Christian?<BR/><BR/>Well, if so, then I guess anybody can be called a Christian.Tribunushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17330137792269530812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062692702190792942.post-87947249897766921592008-03-06T09:36:00.000+00:002008-03-06T09:36:00.000+00:00By the way, notice this amazingly tendentious desc...By the way, notice this amazingly tendentious description of Manichaeans on the Languedoc website at this page:<BR/><BR/>http://www.languedoc-france.info/cathar/120105_names.htm<BR/><BR/>"Manichaeans: a reference to an ancient Dualist synthetic religion founded by Mani in the fourth century. Aurelius Augustinus, later Saint Augustine of Hippo (354 – 430) had been a Manichaean but he left when he realised that he was not going to advance in the hierarchy. He therefore transferred to the branch of the Christian Church that developed into the Roman Catholic Church - bringing some Manichaean ideas with him, but leaving detailed denunciations of others in his writings. When later scholars read his works and compared Manichaean beliefs with contemporary Cathar beliefs they deduced that Cathars were Manichaeans, and adopted the term to describe them".<BR/><BR/>Note that they infer that the early Church was not Roman Catholic but that one branch became Roman Catholic later on.<BR/><BR/>Further note that they say that St Augustine did not abandon Manichaeism entirely but kept some of their ideas and only "transferred" to the Roman Catholic because he was not getting promotion among the Manichees!<BR/><BR/>Thus one of the greatest Fathers of the Western Church is, according to this web-site, really just a semi-Manichaean fraud and ambitious place-hunter. Well, it's a point of view!<BR/><BR/>Note, too, that further down that page, under the heading "Tixerrands", they quote Stephen Runciman, the medieval historian who was no friend of the Catholic Church, from his book "The Medieval Manichee".<BR/><BR/>So Runciman certainly thought that the medieval Cathars were Manichees!<BR/><BR/>Own goal, perhaps, by the web-site's pro-Cathar authors?Tribunushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17330137792269530812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062692702190792942.post-31236626141151472412008-03-06T09:23:00.000+00:002008-03-06T09:23:00.000+00:00Certainly, Sharon.The pro-Cathar website is a site...Certainly, Sharon.<BR/><BR/>The pro-Cathar website is a site on the Languedoc in France which was a centre of Catharist Albigensianism and it is now the fashion for these areas to promote Catharism and their connection with it. Here it is:<BR/><BR/>http://www.languedoc-france.info/12_cathars.htm<BR/><BR/>The second quote is well-known to scholars of Occitan Albigensianism. <BR/><BR/>I first got it from Maitland’s study of the Albigenses. Full source is:<BR/><BR/>Raynaldus, "Annales", in S. R. Maitland, "History of the Albigenses and Waldenses", London, Rivington, 1832.<BR/><BR/>I have since found the extract at a Fordham U website here:<BR/><BR/>http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/heresy1.html<BR/><BR/>Hope that helps.Tribunushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17330137792269530812noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062692702190792942.post-27422949287701345212008-03-06T04:25:00.000+00:002008-03-06T04:25:00.000+00:00Could you please provide a link to where you obtai...Could you please provide a link to where you obtained your information. If I use your info I will be asked what is the primary source for the information.<BR/><BR/>Thank you,<BR/>SharonAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1062692702190792942.post-71688099089994939792008-03-03T01:14:00.000+00:002008-03-03T01:14:00.000+00:00A great post and should put to rest any idea that ...A great post and should put to rest any idea that the Cathars were "good christians"Walterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11425188800231469894noreply@blogger.com